geem
Well-known member
Last edited:
15 year old lithium battery
- Thread starter geem
- Start date
GHA
Well-known member
Fantastic, thnx for link, glad i saw it before he took it down. Wonder why, possibly a tiny bit libellous towards Winston.. 
So 15 years use, hundreds for discharges to 0%,
"As you will learn in the video, I stopped counting cycles at 2150. Because this bank was an experimental pack, I did not recharge until at least 80% DoD. Today at 15 years these cells can still deliver 413.4Ah! This pack was never charged beyond 13.8V at .4C. I never had balance issues and never had capacity issues . "
Lead's dead, baby!
Very happy I ended up doing the same limits as he did, never above 13.8v & "float" a bit lower @ 13.3v
So 15 years use, hundreds for discharges to 0%,
"As you will learn in the video, I stopped counting cycles at 2150. Because this bank was an experimental pack, I did not recharge until at least 80% DoD. Today at 15 years these cells can still deliver 413.4Ah! This pack was never charged beyond 13.8V at .4C. I never had balance issues and never had capacity issues . "
Lead's dead, baby!
Very happy I ended up doing the same limits as he did, never above 13.8v & "float" a bit lower @ 13.3v
Stingo
Well-known member
"This video has been removed by the unloader"
geem
Well-known member
It's a real shame. Rod was a pioneer of lithium on boats. A fountain of knowledge. It was a very informative video but he did slag off the main guy at Winston for being a crook.
The take homes.
Don't charge above 13.8v for a 12v battery. Float at 13.5v or below. Discharge to 10% is fine. You can fully discharge cells with mi imial impact. Don't leave batteries fully charged. Never charge below freezing. You need compression. He fully expects to get 20 years out of his lithium battery and still have 80% capacity or more. Winston cells are no better than any blue cased modern cell that is grade A so expect those to last as long as his Winstons cells.
I might have missed other stuff
geem
Well-known member
You can still view it on the American cruisers forum
KompetentKrew
Well-known member
Looks like he deleted it and reuploaded it - no idea why, as I'm pretty sure you can upload a new copy if you want to make any edits, and keep the URL.
@geem, can you edit your post?
@geem, can you edit your post?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyF976hAxo
geem
Well-known member
Done
Neeves
Well-known member
I had no problem watching the video - except I found the accent difficult to decipher.
This latter was important to me as I could not Devine which, or whose, batteries he was using - mainly because I'm not familiar with Lithium battery manufacturers. I did recognise Winson - whom and which he damned - but has been heavily supported here.
One take away - my interpretation - build you own battery - because if you buy an off the shelf battery you have no idea, or may have no idea, which cells they use and whether the cells you are buying are from someone he says are crooks.
He was using a JK BMS. The vid focus was on the cells - not the BMS. He only mentioned the JK BMS in passing.
His charge and float voltages are much lower than the charge and float voltages quoted by almost anyone else, see Geem's post above, post No 4. He is very comfortable running his battery bank down to near zero. 0%, but qualified this later in the vid by suggesting if you are uncomfortable then 10% or 20% is fine. Freezing conditions remain an issue, which presumably is why some batteries are marketed with built in heaters.
He had built a compression 'case' which he seemed to emphasise was essential or critical. He said it was built from aluminium plate - and if he wants to compress the cells then it would need to be pretty robust aluminium which would possibly be the 7000 alloy series, specifically 7075 T6 temper (about 520 MPa) - I think used for the MacBooks and iPads. He did not mention why aluminium, there is steel plate with much higher tensile strength, allowing use of much thinner plate (as used in the automobile industry). Aluminium would be lighter and may be better in the marine environment (though batteries should not be exposed to water and you could paint the HT steel) - and he prefaced the vid saying he had had a yacht and that was part of his motivation. I think he said, I've only watched the vid once, the cross rods we're also aluminium (you can buy the plate 'off the shelf' from most aluminium stockists - though I'm not sure of the rods, you can buy HT steel tube). Compression cases have not enjoyed much of an airing here - and from memory they seem to have been made from ply - which is hardly robust. But he did emphasise the critical need of the compression case. For thin HT steel look at the SSAB website, say their Hardox range.
What was interesting to me was that his battery bank was being used in a terrestrial application (despite the constant criticism I have received for doing 'exactly' the same thing).
What I missed most was - who made his cells? and/or though he did no recommend, but repetitively damned some,
Which cells did he approve?
Jonathan
This latter was important to me as I could not Devine which, or whose, batteries he was using - mainly because I'm not familiar with Lithium battery manufacturers. I did recognise Winson - whom and which he damned - but has been heavily supported here.
One take away - my interpretation - build you own battery - because if you buy an off the shelf battery you have no idea, or may have no idea, which cells they use and whether the cells you are buying are from someone he says are crooks.
He was using a JK BMS. The vid focus was on the cells - not the BMS. He only mentioned the JK BMS in passing.
His charge and float voltages are much lower than the charge and float voltages quoted by almost anyone else, see Geem's post above, post No 4. He is very comfortable running his battery bank down to near zero. 0%, but qualified this later in the vid by suggesting if you are uncomfortable then 10% or 20% is fine. Freezing conditions remain an issue, which presumably is why some batteries are marketed with built in heaters.
He had built a compression 'case' which he seemed to emphasise was essential or critical. He said it was built from aluminium plate - and if he wants to compress the cells then it would need to be pretty robust aluminium which would possibly be the 7000 alloy series, specifically 7075 T6 temper (about 520 MPa) - I think used for the MacBooks and iPads. He did not mention why aluminium, there is steel plate with much higher tensile strength, allowing use of much thinner plate (as used in the automobile industry). Aluminium would be lighter and may be better in the marine environment (though batteries should not be exposed to water and you could paint the HT steel) - and he prefaced the vid saying he had had a yacht and that was part of his motivation. I think he said, I've only watched the vid once, the cross rods we're also aluminium (you can buy the plate 'off the shelf' from most aluminium stockists - though I'm not sure of the rods, you can buy HT steel tube). Compression cases have not enjoyed much of an airing here - and from memory they seem to have been made from ply - which is hardly robust. But he did emphasise the critical need of the compression case. For thin HT steel look at the SSAB website, say their Hardox range.
What was interesting to me was that his battery bank was being used in a terrestrial application (despite the constant criticism I have received for doing 'exactly' the same thing).
What I missed most was - who made his cells? and/or though he did no recommend, but repetitively damned some,
Which cells did he approve?
Jonathan
geem
Well-known member
I am on 27.7 bulk and 26.4 float on 24v batteriesFantastic, thnx for link, glad i saw it before he took it down. Wonder why, possibly a tiny bit libellous towards Winston..
So 15 years use, hundreds for discharges to 0%,
"As you will learn in the video, I stopped counting cycles at 2150. Because this bank was an experimental pack, I did not recharge until at least 80% DoD. Today at 15 years these cells can still deliver 413.4Ah! This pack was never charged beyond 13.8V at .4C. I never had balance issues and never had capacity issues . "
View attachment 176763
Lead's dead, baby!
Very happy I ended up doing the same limits as he did, never above 13.8v & "float" a bit lower @ 13.3v
geem
Well-known member
His cells are Winston.I had no problem watching the video - except I found the accent difficult to decipher.
This latter was important to me as I could not Devine which, or whose, batteries he was using - mainly because I'm not familiar with Lithium battery manufacturers. I did recognise Winson - whom and which he damned - but has been heavily supported here.
One take away - my interpretation - build you own battery - because if you buy an off the shelf battery you have no idea, or may have no idea, which cells they use and whether the cells you are buying are from someone he says are crooks.
He was using a JK BMS. The vid focus was on the cells - not the BMS. He only mentioned the JK BMS in passing.
His charge and float voltages are much lower than the charge and float voltages quoted by almost anyone else, see Geem's post above, post No 4. He is very comfortable running his battery bank down to near zero. 0%, but qualified this later in the vid by suggesting if you are uncomfortable then 10% or 20% is fine. Freezing conditions remain an issue, which presumably is why some batteries are marketed with built in heaters.
He had built a compression 'case' which he seemed to emphasise was essential or critical. He said it was built from aluminium plate - and if he wants to compress the cells then it would need to be pretty robust aluminium which would possibly be the 7000 alloy series, specifically 7075 T6 temper (about 520 MPa) - I think used for the MacBooks and iPads. He did not mention why aluminium, there is steel plate with much higher tensile strength, allowing use of much thinner plate (as used in the automobile industry). Aluminium would be lighter and may be better in the marine environment (though batteries should not be exposed to water and you could paint the HT steel) - and he prefaced the vid saying he had had a yacht and that was part of his motivation. I think he said, I've only watched the vid once, the cross rods we're also aluminium (you can buy the plate 'off the shelf' from most aluminium stockists - though I'm not sure of the rods, you can buy HT steel tube). Compression cases have not enjoyed much of an airing here - and from memory they seem to have been made from ply - which is hardly robust. But he did emphasise the critical need of the compression case. For thin HT steel look at the SSAB website, say their Hardox range.
What was interesting to me was that his battery bank was being used in a terrestrial application (despite the constant criticism I have received for doing 'exactly' the same thing).
What I missed most was - who made his cells? and/or though he did no recommend, but repetitively damned some,
Which cells did he approve?
Jonathan
He didnt dam the cells just the guy running Winston
geem
Well-known member
Rod had a stroke 2 years ago. Little use in his left arm and trouble with speach.I had no problem watching the video - except I found the accent difficult to decipher.
This latter was important to me as I could not Devine which, or whose, batteries he was using - mainly because I'm not familiar with Lithium battery manufacturers. I did recognise Winson - whom and which he damned - but has been heavily supported here.
One take away - my interpretation - build you own battery - because if you buy an off the shelf battery you have no idea, or may have no idea, which cells they use and whether the cells you are buying are from someone he says are crooks.
He was using a JK BMS. The vid focus was on the cells - not the BMS. He only mentioned the JK BMS in passing.
His charge and float voltages are much lower than the charge and float voltages quoted by almost anyone else, see Geem's post above, post No 4. He is very comfortable running his battery bank down to near zero. 0%, but qualified this later in the vid by suggesting if you are uncomfortable then 10% or 20% is fine. Freezing conditions remain an issue, which presumably is why some batteries are marketed with built in heaters.
He had built a compression 'case' which he seemed to emphasise was essential or critical. He said it was built from aluminium plate - and if he wants to compress the cells then it would need to be pretty robust aluminium which would possibly be the 7000 alloy series, specifically 7075 T6 temper (about 520 MPa) - I think used for the MacBooks and iPads. He did not mention why aluminium, there is steel plate with much higher tensile strength, allowing use of much thinner plate (as used in the automobile industry). Aluminium would be lighter and may be better in the marine environment (though batteries should not be exposed to water and you could paint the HT steel) - and he prefaced the vid saying he had had a yacht and that was part of his motivation. I think he said, I've only watched the vid once, the cross rods we're also aluminium (you can buy the plate 'off the shelf' from most aluminium stockists - though I'm not sure of the rods, you can buy HT steel tube). Compression cases have not enjoyed much of an airing here - and from memory they seem to have been made from ply - which is hardly robust. But he did emphasise the critical need of the compression case. For thin HT steel look at the SSAB website, say their Hardox range.
What was interesting to me was that his battery bank was being used in a terrestrial application (despite the constant criticism I have received for doing 'exactly' the same thing).
What I missed most was - who made his cells? and/or though he did no recommend, but repetitively damned some,
Which cells did he approve?
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
Thanks, he did mention a number of suppliers or brand names (some of which I simply did not recognise) - but I could not decipher exactly.
Who, I think, is also called Winston
- hence the name(s)I had noted the stroke, absence of use of the left arm and the stroke being the reason he has stopped sailing. I'm also aware strokes impact speech - but thought my inability to pick out some detail was the American accent, to which I'm unused.
Completely unrelated
Sydney has enjoyed (?) 11 consecutive days when it has rained, the record is 16 days in 2022. Its heavily overcast today and raining (forecast of 30mm), rain for 2 more days and then sunny on Tuesday. You would need, a seriously, parsimonious use of solar powered (any) house bank, an unrealistic size of solar display or a decent fossil fuel powered fall back gas (cooking), diesel (amps) - to survive 'off grid' - or accept and retreat to a marina. Lithium would be the best storage medium - but you would need a decent mechanism to recharge (not just solar). Definitely the weather to be able to harvest rain
.Its worst case scenario (maybe unique to Sydney, ?) - but one for which you need to plan, here at least.
I can feel for anyone who scheduled a holiday in sunny (?) Sydney for the first fortnight in May.
Jonathan
jakew009
Active member
Even if you were not to bother with compression, and if you ran the cells up to 14.4V every day, and ran them back down to 0% every night, they would still last such a long time it’s not even worth thinking about.
I bet there have been more cells damaged from over compressing than under compressing them.
I bet there have been more cells damaged from over compressing than under compressing them.
Neeves
Well-known member
My take is - I'm ignorant and weigh up the advice given. In the video mention is made the cells do swell, and I think the suggestion was this is not advantageous. Geem and Sea Fever aka Kelpie have both mentioned 'boxing' the cells and using threaded rod to tighten the 'box'. The cells need to be clamped together anyway as you cannot rely on the bus bars - which only retain the cell tops.
I did note in the video the cells are only retained, compressed, on the sides, not the ends (nor top and bottom). Geem's photos in one of his earlier threads had the same arrangement, just retained on the sides. I found this 'interesting'.
Why not retain them tightly - but taking opportunity here to define how 'tight' is tight.
If the cells are going to have the long life being indicated - a decent professional 'clamp' seems appropriate ' just to keep the battery (aka collection of cells) secure.
All of these recommendations need clarification where possible and like the charging/float levels - modification in the light of developing knowledge.
quote. I bet there have been more cells damaged from over compressing than under compressing them. unquote
Do you have any evidence that this has been an issue?
Jonathan
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vas
Well-known member
FWIW, this is mine (304Ah, now into its 3rd year):
two 20mm marine ply on the sides,
cut handles to help in carrying it - still lighter than a 200Ah 12V LA, and similar size...
8cells as it's 24V,
2mm thick rubber sheet between each cell (and cell to ply sides)
4X10mm rods,
two bottom ones closer to each other so that cells rest on them (rods have rubber hose over them so that they wont damage the cells)
busbars with black shrink on them to avoid nasty sorts,
(still not fitted rubber cups on the M6 nuts though)
perspex lid just in case, it's on a locker,
DIYBMS one pcb per cell to communicate state to BMS/passive balance to almost 1A, etc
on the locker above from left to right is power supply to the BMS, BMS (with lcd touch screen, - also wifi/bt), shunt and at the far right bluesea bistable relay,
Class T fuse not in this pic for some reason.
BMS linked to VenusOS raspberry pi which controls/communicates with BMS, MPPT controller (600W on hardtop) and Multiplus 3KVA inverter.
Main load is 1.8kW watermaker and usual crap onboard a 43ft mobo
Re tightening the assembly, I discharged batteries to circa 30% (iirc) and clamped it with a torque wrench at a reasonably low value (which I cannot recall, maybe @gregcope remembers - we discussed them in PMs back then)
Once a year I open the locker to see if they are still there
I do follow their performance via the Victron touch screen on board or remotely from victron VRM:
and or grafana dashboard:
boat currently on the hard, last three days charging is off due to having reached 99% SoC 4days ago and now on rest mode till SoC drops to 35% or so when it will start charging again. I've configured that, need to alter the top charging level but not had the time to deal with it yet. Ideally off season I'd like to have them cycle from 30-50% and just stay there with or without fridge running. I got a more or less permanent 1.3-1.5A @24V load from all the systems on board 24/7 (bms, n2k bus and devices, switch, 4G router, alarm, etc.)
V.
jakew009
Active member
There is a big difference between ‘compressing’ and ‘containing’ the cells.
They start off a perfectly rectangular shape. When they are charged they tend to ‘puff’ slightly by a mm or so. The idea with compressing them is to always keep them in their perfectly rectangular shape and prevent them from being able to puff.
There have been loads of posts on the diy battery forums / Facebook over the years “I accidentally crushed my cells by torquing them up to 500nm, what should I do”.
I am yet to see a single post “my cells died because I didn’t compress them”.
It’s worth noting that virtually none of the ‘drop in’ battery manufacturers compress their cells. They just wrap them in some fibreglass reinforced strapping tape. There are millions of these sold for every diy compressed battery made.
Inside a Victron battery
geem
Well-known member
No definitely not. Under compression is worse than over compression. I read a good article some time ago by an engineer from Eve who said that.
I think for the purposes of installing cells in a DIY on a boat, you need enough compression to ensure cells are held firmly. This then gives you the opportunity to hold the battery in place. Cells that are under compressed run the risk of rubbing between cell cases. Cells need separators to keep the cases electrically insulated
jakew009
Active member
As I said, barely any pre made batteries are ‘compressed’ in the DIY sense of the word. And they out number diy packs by many orders of magnitude.
I agree re making sure the cells cannot rub, hence why most manufacturers use strapping tape to lock them together.
Zing
Well-known member
I binned my Winstons at 9 years. Caribbean heat and possibly storing at too high a voltage over summer is the reason for an early demise compared to Collins I suspect. I now discharge the new home built pack to 30% over summer. Lets hope they last. That said, still far better than lead.
I also have Victron packs, one of which died under warranty and protected by their in-house whizzo BMS. No explanation from Victron.
I also have Victron packs, one of which died under warranty and protected by their in-house whizzo BMS. No explanation from Victron.
GHA
Well-known member
My Catl cells specified the compression required for cycle life in the datasheet.
25±2°C 初始夹紧力 300±20Kgf，标准充放电测
试，容量衰减至 161.6Ah
25±2°C, cycle test by the standard charge and
discharge method under 300±20Kgf preload.，
capacity fading to 161.6Ah
Istr one reason for the compression is to prevent the (substantial) lateral load on the terminals causing internal delamination when the cells expand & contract during charge/discharge.
