15 year old lithium battery

[Neeves]

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here. Maybe I wasn't clear enough? If your lithium system goes down on your yacht and you lose your lights, plotter, autopilot, etc, then things could quickly become more serious. You could, worst case, find yourself unlit and with no idea if where you or anybody else are. Which is where the reef, tanker, etc comes in. I was suggesting that these events would be an outcome of battery failure rather than a cause. I hope that is clear enough for you?

I think our posts crossed, see Post 58.

J

 

[rogerthebodger]

Thank you sea change.

I have a separate engine start LA battery that is charges from a separate solar panel or an engine driven alternator. I do not plan to change that setup only the domestic setup.

My domestic setup has 12 x 105 Ah LA setup as 12 VCD that power all other than engine start including bow thruster and windlass

Main fuse is currently 800 Amp to feed busbar distribution mainly for bow thruster. the feed is normally to a CB distribution board to protect the lower power cables

I may need to change my domestic man switch setup for a higher capacity.

I could disconnect the engine domestic alternator and change solar panel controllers. I have 8 80 watt panels for domestic charging

Any comments would be apricated.

I have no issue buying from China as I had purchased before and we are closer to China that USA

 

[Neeves]

I think the big difference between a terrestrial system and a marine system is the ability to have a larger solar display (on a terrestrial system) and the ability to feed excess power to the grid. I'm surprised catamaran owners are not criticised for being able to instal large solar displays - fundamentally larger than people on yachts.

Having a large display and feeding to the grid is commonplace here. Off grid this obviously does not happen and batteries are then commonplace (and off grid usage looks very similar to.....Rod's - and its Rod with his terrestrial battery bank that has devined a new schedule to prolong life. Thank goodness for terrestrial players.

I'm really not sure that the differences are as damning as you, and others, suggest - and you are quite entitled to your opinion. But if you conjure up other fundamental differences......

Jonathan

 

[Sea Change]

I think the big difference between a terrestrial system and a marine system is the ability to have a larger solar display (on a terrestrial system) and the ability to feed excess power to the grid. I'm surprised catamaran owners are not criticised for being able to instal large solar displays - fundamentally larger than people on yachts.

Having a large display and feeding to the grid is commonplace here. Off grid this obviously does not happen and batteries are then commonplace (and off grid usage looks very similar to.....Rod's - and its Rod with his terrestrial battery bank that has devined a new schedule to prolong life. Thank goodness for terrestrial players.

I'm really not sure that the differences are as damning as you, and others, suggest - and you are quite entitled to your opinion. But if you conjure up other fundamental differences......

Jonathan

Those are the differences. Up to you if you think they are fundamental or not.

Why should anybody be criticised fur fitting as much solar (and it's an array, not a display) as possible?

We seem to be going round in circles. You've been given plenty of information and advice and you seem to understand the basics of solar and lithium systems. Yet you continue to act in an almost confrontational manner, searching for points of disagreement. It's getting a bit tiring.

 

[GHA]

If I knew the answers I would not have posed the questions. But I'm here to learn - from people like.... you.

Jonathan

Why not go and look like the rest of us have to? Why would anyone know the specifics of Rod's specific set up.

"Why not go and do your own research, then post it on here with links to the sources."
Research doesn't mean "I know the answers already".

 

[vas]

another difference not mentioned between land (real land) and boating application is that typically land applications wire panels in series up to 350-400VDC which then is easier to fit in smaller size conduits to travel to the secure, dry spot (garage basement whatever) where the mppt/inverter/charger combo device resides.
I don't think it's typical to reach such voltages in boat installations, I've gone in series two 300W domestic 1X2m panels so voltage goes up to 90something VDC (smaller section cables to travel the 2X8m to the inverter)
Of course you can get them all in parallel in land, but for the above reasons you don't do it!

 

[Neeves]

What I find extraordinary is that Rod has turned up data and advice that, basically, no-one else has found. His advice on the conditions to cycle batteries are in contradiction to all the advice given by 'our' experts here - and he is effectively saying (I think) life as measured in cycles is wrong - batteries will last for ever, or 15 years - if you change your re-charging regime. We have people here who generate income as acknowledged experts in, or with, Lithium batteries - and no-one has turned up this data.

The anomaly has been noted by comments that one data point is statistically irrelevant - which I note - has been carefully ignored.

One of the big issues with electric cars is that when the battery dies it is simply not worth buying a new replacement as the battery is worth more than the vehicle - so buy a new car. Having said that I don't know how many electric cars have needed new batteries.

One might think that the battery makers and the market place (car/bus makers etc) themselves would have researched, to death, battery life and someone would have found similar results - though maybe commercially having a truly everlasting product is the death knell of your business. I reiterate to save even more criticism of my ideas - I don't doubt Rod's work, how could I. I can accept that using and testing a 15 year old battery bank is real dedication - but its the sort of test I would have expected at least one other person/group in the 'industry' to make.

I just ask the questions and do things that some people don't like . - and they get really upset.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

another difference not mentioned between land (real land) and boating application is that typically land applications wire panels in series up to 350-400VDC which then is easier to fit in smaller size conduits to travel to the secure, dry spot (garage basement whatever) where the mppt/inverter/charger combo device resides.
I don't think it's typical to reach such voltages in boat installations, I've gone in series two 300W domestic 1X2m panels so voltage goes up to 90something VDC (smaller section cables to travel the 2X8m to the inverter)
Of course you can get them all in parallel in land, but for the above reasons you don't do it!

Actually we were not talking about 'land' the criticism was on my kit, which is on land, but built round a yacht installation. So small solar panel display, not a whole roof, not tied to the grid. It has all the safety devices you would expect, on a yacht. I have been told there are fundamental differences - but this does not stand scrutiny.

And it is really upsetting to most. Not helped as Rod has contradicted some of the data consistently posted here - and his results come from a 'land' installation.

Jonathan

Why not go and look like the rest of us have to? Why would anyone know the specifics of Rod's specific set up.

"Why not go and do your own research, then post it on here with links to the sources."
Research doesn't mean "I know the answers already".

Actually much research is based on knowing the answer and testing that answer's robustness. If the answer is not robust - its an incorrect answer. Happens all the time.

I don't need to look - you are happy to do it for all of us. .

Thank you

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

- and his results come from a 'land' installation.

His batteries were on a boat until a couple of years ago.

DIYsolar is the place to talk land based instead of constantly derailing threads on here with your rants, this is a sailing forum.

 

[Neeves]

Another rant. more derailment.

I can point out it is not a sailing forum, its a yachting forum. It covers a number of vessel types. When you become a Mod you can determine what members might do - in between times......

Rod who is Maine Sail on CF made an earlier post on his battery bank when it was 12 years old. It will appeal to those who are not keen on videos as his first post in the thread provides all, or most of, the detail of his bank that is easily missed in his 15 year video. The thread is also useful as some of the members who posted provided links to their suppliers.

Happy 13th birthday to my LiFePo4 battery bank (5/10/2009) - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

His video, the 15th birthday, and discussion on CF, is this link

Happy 15th Birthday to my LiFePo4 Bank - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Neither thread is very long. In fact the first thread is amazingly short.


One member is suggesting BMS are unnecessary - which should engender some comment.

Jonathan

 

[B27]

What I find extraordinary is that Rod has turned up data and advice that, basically, no-one else has found. His advice on the conditions to cycle batteries are in contradiction to all the advice given by 'our' experts here - and he is effectively saying (I think) life as measured in cycles is wrong - batteries will last for ever, or 15 years - if you change your re-charging regime. We have people here who generate income as acknowledged experts in, or with, Lithium batteries - and no-one has turned up this data.
.....

Jonathan

There's loads of data available from cell makers for Lifepo4 batteries as well as the various other 'Lithium' chemistries.
It can be boiled down to
Calendar matters and is a function of temperature
Cycle life is generally finite, but is a big number. fast charge and discharge will reduce this. LIFEPO4 generally is good for a lot of cycles, other lithium, less so for 100% cycles, shallow cycles much less damaging
There is variation due to
a) not all cells of any chemistry being identical. Manufacturing has changed, brands differ, these are still evolving products and
b) how you treat the cells affects the outcome. Temperature, storage voltage, charge rates, everything can affect the aging processes.

I've got some 10 year old Nimh cells in a product which still work fine, but I'm not going to say that means Nimh is a good cell chemistry going forwards.

I think where we are with LIfePO4 now is that calendar life is the main killer unless you're squeezing several fast/hard/deep cycles into a day.
But most cars for instance are still other Lithium technology, which is where more people are needing to make big decisions.

If something is warranted/guaranteed to last for 8 years in normal use, it's really not news that one sample lasts twice that.
What people need to know is more like what can they be 90%+ sure of.
What warranty can you get on a Lifepo4 battery these days?
I think you can get 10 years with limitations on a domestic system, I'm in no way knocking that, it's good.

 

[Sea Change]

You can now buy 280Ah cells for about £65... which puts a DIY battery at about £325.

To buy the same useable capacity in cheapo lead acid leisure batteries would cost about £420 (based on a quick look at Tayna).

To buy that capacity in AGMs would be around £700, more if you want a recognised marine brand.

So lithium is already cheaper. If it lasts fifteen years, that's good too. But you don't have to squeeze every bit of life out of them, they're already the cheaper choice *

* cheaper per useable Ah of the batteries only. System modifications may vary. Terms and conditions apply. Offer not applicable to luddites.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Has any one used sunraybattery 3.2 v cells or 12dc packs

sea change where are those 65gbp cells supplied by

 

[Sea Change]

Has any one used sunraybattery 3.2 v cells or 12dc packs

sea change where are those 65gbp cells supplied by

From memory it was from Docan, I saw it on one of the Facebook groups this morning.

I've used both EVE and Lishen cells myself.

This forum isn't really the best place to find out which suppliers and brands to use, there's far more feedback if you ask on the Facebook groups and DIY Solar forum.

 

[B27]

You can now buy 280Ah cells for about £65... which puts a DIY battery at about £325.

To buy the same useable capacity in cheapo lead acid leisure batteries would cost about £420 (based on a quick look at Tayna).

To buy that capacity in AGMs would be around £700, more if you want a recognised marine brand.

So lithium is already cheaper. If it lasts fifteen years, that's good too. But you don't have to squeeze every bit of life out of them, they're already the cheaper choice *

* cheaper per useable Ah of the batteries only. System modifications may vary. Terms and conditions apply. Offer not applicable to luddites.

That's vaguely true, if you are looking for long cycle life.
If you just want the cheapest and you won't deep discharge it very often, which is the case for a lot of yachts, then lead may still be cheapest as you don't need any BMS or shiny blue boxes from Victron etc.
Cell prices keep falling but cells are not the whole cost.

Ah's are still expensive things, How many do you really need? How many do I really need?

 

[jakew009]

Talking of cheap cells... how cheap do you want to go

Battero Tech BT280 3.2V 280Ah LiFePO4 Cells

 

[Sea Change]

That's vaguely true, if you are looking for long cycle life.
If you just want the cheapest and you won't deep discharge it very often, which is the case for a lot of yachts, then lead may still be cheapest as you don't need any BMS or shiny blue boxes from Victron etc.
Cell prices keep falling but cells are not the whole cost.

Ah's are still expensive things, How many do you really need? How many do I really need?

My price included the BMS

 

[vas]

Talking of cheap cells... how cheap do you want to go

Battero Tech BT280 3.2V 280Ah LiFePO4 Cells

nice! that's half what I paid (before taxes and transport to Greece) three years ago... Tempting to get a bank for home but still need to decide on panels' placement on a quasi-listed area where my house is

 

[jakew009]

nice! that's half what I paid (before taxes and transport to Greece) three years ago... Tempting to get a bank for home but still need to decide on panels' placement on a quasi-listed area where my house is

I think it's probably cheaper than even the cheapest lead acid, even if you ignored the fact that you should only discharge the lead acid to 50%.

 

[B27]

I think it's probably cheaper than even the cheapest lead acid, even if you ignored the fact that you should only discharge the lead acid to 50%.

It's very cheap.
But those cells only have a 2 year warranty.
And that's a factory gate price in China, so unrealistic to compare with a VAT paid nextday consumer price in the UK.
Good to see prices are still falling.
I'm looking at a panel and battery system for my house.