Preventing scale in toilet pipes - chemist please?

pappaecho · 11 Aug 2007

Citric or tartaric acid will shift the calcium carbonate deposits, and as they are natural acids made to EP or BP standards will not cause the Friends of the Lugworm to take issue. A 10% solution works fine, add some lemon if you like the smell.
I use HCL personally, but then I am a chemist

Oldhand · 12 Aug 2007

Agree white vinegar works fine, easy to obtain in quantity and less dangerous to use than hyrochloric acid.

VicS · 12 Aug 2007

The whole point of Lemains question was to avoid the chore of regularly flushing with acid whether it's HCl, citric, tartaric, or vinegar. In practice of course he may find he has to repace or recharge his polyphosphate unit just as frequently as he does his HCl clean. If that is the case then he will not have gained very much!

Gunfleet · 12 Aug 2007

Problem solved

I have a fine rubber bucket I'm willing to export to him for a small consideration in cash. Just rinse after use.

Anonymous · 13 Aug 2007

Vic, you're right, but it isn't only for cost or convenience although there is no doubt that it would be far cheaper and more convenient. There is no way to monitor the buildup of scale so one has to dose heavily - overdose - regularly to be sure. That is not so good for the environment (factory made products delivered to the shops have an environmental impact and so does the packaging) and it does not have the certainty you would have if water conditioning was the answer.

Surely there is no doubt that if polyphosphate works then it would be a vastly better answer to marine toilet scale than vinegar or HCl? Trouble is someone needs to do the lab test first. It would suit a land-based entrepreneur - I'd do it myself if I had a land base or access to a workshop with water, drains, power, etc.

I think you could quickly determine the efficacy by looking at deposits on microscope slides and at the same time look at optimum concentrations of cleansing acids such as acetic and hydrochloric.

jimbaerselman · 13 Aug 2007

Don't worry about the environmental impact of hyrochloric acid. As soon as it hits seawater it's converted to calcium and sodium chloride, giving off a little carbon dioxide in the process - which in turn is mostly dissolved in the seawater.

Bear in mind that your stomach uses hydrochloric acid to start the digestion process . . .

Anonymous · 13 Aug 2007

[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry about the environmental impact of hydrochloric acid. As soon as it hits seawater it's converted to calcium and sodium chloride,....

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim, the acid per se is not the issue. I buy a quite a lot of HCl in plastic bottles - there is the cost, energy and materials used in the manufacture of the contents, the bottle, and the delivery cost. The polyphosphate cartridge would appear to be far more environmentally friendly in the long run as it will last for at least a year, maybe several years. It wouldn't matter if we were putting bottled water down the loo - there is still an environmental cost.

Vara · 13 Aug 2007

For all the people who don't want to get involved in messing about with DIY Hydrochloric acid. This stuff available at your local supermarket (French and British) contains a reasonable amount of HCl and preliminary tests at home show it to be very effective on limescale. £1 a bottle.

Usual caveats.

Whoops just realised this is a Reckitt product, I have some shares. So please buy lots and lots and the increased divi will buy my Hallberg Rassy (nothing flash you understand just a little one, a S/Hand 31 perhaps.).

Anonymous · 13 Aug 2007

[ QUOTE ]
. £1 a bottle.

[/ QUOTE ]

A litre of HCl in the supermarket here is €0.50 - around 35p

Vara · 13 Aug 2007

And to make that very cheap HCl effective as a toilet cleaner and descaler you should add a wetting agent and a thickening agent, and if you played about with various ingredients you might come up with something as effective as Harpic!!

If you are really keen on cheapskating then cut your HCl 50/50 with cheap washing up liquid, it will make it more effective.

Anonymous · 13 Aug 2007

[ QUOTE ]
If you are really keen on cheapskating then cut your HCl 50/50 with cheap washing up liquid, it will make it more effective.

[/ QUOTE ]I used to add washing up liquid (though not 50/50) and water, and store it in a Harpic-like bottle but I had to keep adding vegetable oil to keep the toilets running well. Now I've stopped using the detergent I seldom need to put oil down.

Incidentally, I don't know about 'cheapskating'. What is the point in paying 10 times the price for a product that is identical to a generic chemical, just so it says 'Toilet Cleaner' on the bottle? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SV Wanderlust · 29 Apr 2024

VicS said:
[ QUOTE ]
(Vic ) feel able to comment

[/ QUOTE ] Absolutely no idea! I suppose it might work. The only difference is that the calcium carbonate is formed by chemical reaction rather than thermal decomposition. I'd feel inclined to try it. There's nothing to loose apart from a few Euros.

VicS said:
Firstly there is no such thing as ureac acid AFAIK.

Secondly urine does not contain uric acid (aka 2,6,8-trihydroxypurine, C5H4N4O3) as far as I am aware. Deposits, however, do cause gout and rheumatism.

Urine contains <u>urea</u> (aka cabamide, H2N-CO-NH2). Bacterial action releases ammonia from urea which increases the pH leading to deposition of calcium carbonate scale from the calcium bicarbonate in seawater.

I believe urine also contains phosphates and that magnesium ammonium phosphate can be precipitated. That may also be the cause of some of the scale formed in toilet pipes.

I belive it is true that there is a difference in male and female urine but what or why I know not (Brendan will know!) but the reason female toilets scale less may just be because the females of the species flush them more thoroughly.

Correction, sorry, small quantities of uric acid are excreted in urine, at least by primates and dalmation dogs!

Vic, we have heads that have only had RO water through them and still get a yellow buildup where water sits in the bowl. I’m considering installing an injector in the supply line and wonder what you’d recommend to put into it? Vinegar? Toilet bowl cleaner? There must be something that is not removed by the RO system that reacts with the urine just as seawater does.

MontyMariner · 29 Apr 2024

Sometimes reserecting an old thread is good. All those names long gone with great contributions, not forgetting those still around

rogerthebodger · 29 Apr 2024

MontyMariner said:
Sometimes reserecting an old thread is good. All those names long gone with great contributions, not forgetting those still around

Does make you wonder why the stopper posting.

goeasy123 · 29 Apr 2024

Similar plea for a chemist here.... Cleaning Toilets - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

We have a Purytec in-line fitting, but no Purytec consumable. We fill a screw on bottle with crystaline citric acid. It doses the system on every flush. Change it every 10 days or so. Cheap, safe and environmentally OK. Work very well. Absolutely no scale.

Amazon.co.uk

Stemar · 30 Apr 2024

The answer was given a few times 17 years ago. Flush more; it's what we've done and have never had a problem in 20 years.

To clear a build up, half a bucket of fresh water in the bowl + a cup or two of white vinegar, pump into the system and leave overnight. If that doesn't do it, it's time to take the pipe off and treat it to some percussive maintenance.

oldmanofthehills · 30 Apr 2024

SV Wanderlust said:
Vic, we have heads that have only had RO water through them and still get a yellow buildup where water sits in the bowl. I’m considering installing an injector in the supply line and wonder what you’d recommend to put into it? Vinegar? Toilet bowl cleaner? There must be something that is not removed by the RO system that reacts with the urine just as seawater does.

You need hydrochloric acid/muratic acid on the continent/ brick cleaner cantyaining hydrochloric acid. It wont hurt the loo but flush through thoroughly after application.

The amonia in urine (which is alkali) causes calcium carbonate to precipitate out of the seawater. And the scale then stains. The scale will block your pipes also. Reccomended to treat the system every few years or so.

If you flush through very thoroughly after peeing, the problem is less - 10 pumps not our usual desolatotory 3 to 5

rogerthebodger · 30 Apr 2024

oldmanofthehills said:
You need hydrochloric acid/muratic acid on the continent/ brick cleaner cantyaining hydrochloric acid. It wont hurt the loo but flush through thoroughly after application.

The amonia in urine (which is alkali) causes calcium carbonate to precipitate out of the seawater. And the scale then stains. The scale will block your pipes also. Reccomended to treat the system every few years or so.

If you flush through very thoroughly after peeing, the problem is less - 10 pumps not our usual desolatotory 3 to 5

Be careful using hydrochloric acid as I used it in my Lavac and it did remove the calcium which broke off and blocked the outlet which allowed pressure to build up that exploded the pump body.

I fitted an electric pump with a time switch that would allow the flush to be extensive so flush all the urine away reducing the calcium build up

Number of pumps depend on length of pipe between pump and outlet to sea.

Dellquay13 · 30 Apr 2024

rogerthebodger said:
Number of pumps depend on length of pipe between pump and outlet to sea.

Is this correct? I thought it would be the length of pipe between the pump and the crest of the anti syphon valve loop, gravity should take over after that, on my boat at least.

rogerthebodger · 30 Apr 2024

Dellquay13 said:
Is this correct? I thought it would be the length of pipe between the pump and the top of the anti syphon loop valve, gravity should take over after that, on my boat at least.

To a point as the sea water between sea water level and the outlet needs to have the urine flushed out otherwise the calcium will build up there. and from the head to the water level in the pipe inside the boat up to the water line will also have sea water in the pipe and unless fully flushed would also have aa build up of calcium in that pipe

I have in the past had to remove the whole length of outlet pipe and bash on walk-on to remove calcium.

Preventing scale in toilet pipes - chemist please?

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