Does anyone ever do man not-overboard practice?

Slowtack said:

I carry a 3m square of trawler quality fishing net. The inner end attaches to two mooring cleats and the outer corners to be lifted by the boom and mainsheet once the casualty is alongside and within the net who can be rolled inboard once raised to deck level.. ..as advised by a wily old skipper and lifeboatman....if the casualty is fit enough he/she can clamber up the net
.... Hope it works....

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There are two reasons this or the sail are excellent methods.

1. The amount of effort to haul the person up and rolled onto deck is significantly less than a direct lift due to acting like a small tackle to halve the force needed. It was used for centuries as a means to roll barrels etc onto ships ....
2. Casualty is not subjected to mishandling - a badly placed strop / lift point can in fact break the back / spine .....

Thinking about lifting / tether points. Its actually a very bad idea to have your lifting / tether point at front of your body ... best is at the side, still allowing you to reach out and manoeuvre ... least damaging but leaves you in awkward position is to the rear of body.

Out of curiosity, among French singlehanded racers there has been a long standing tradition dating back to Tabarly etc of macho man sailing following the credo "if one falls overboard it means he had no place on board", "tethers are for pussies", etc etc. (A further declination was that women hadn't their place onboard, until the likes of Florence Arthaud or Autissier appeared). With all the success they had, publication of books and articles, etc of course it spilled over to everyone else. Tabarly death is well known and he surely accepted it might happen like that, it seems silly that so many people hardly used any safety device "because Tabarly did not use it".
Things are somehow changing, later generations seem to be more safety conscious, though one can still see videos of Vendée Globe sailors repairing their rudders while hanging over the transom with one arm around the lifeline as only safety contact with the boat.

Slowtack said:

I carry a 3m square of trawler quality fishing net. The inner end attaches to two mooring cleats and the outer corners to be lifted by the boom and mainsheet once the casualty is alongside and within the net who can be rolled inboard once raised to deck level.. ..as advised by a wily old skipper and lifeboatman....if the casualty is fit enough he/she can clamber up the net
.... Hope it works....

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Much like the device I mentioned earlier.
However, rather than just hope it works could you not give it a try, perhaps on a fine day at anchor. I used to sail in waters that were seriously cold. MOB practice recoveries were done with the "casualty" lying in a dinghy alongside and supposedly unable to help in the recovery. You would have to get your casualty to lie on the net to simulate floating a casualty in to it. Which raises the question - will the net sink so you can float a casualty over it or does it need weights adding?

Refueler said:

........Thinking about lifting / tether points. Its actually a very bad idea to have your lifting / tether point at front of your body ... best is at the side, still allowing you to reach out and manoeuvre ... least damaging but leaves you in awkward position is to the rear of body.

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Wrong! With a side attachment the body will bend while lifting, potential for serious injury.

Proper harnesses have the lifting point at the back, between the shoulders.

penberth3 said:

Wrong! With a side attachment the body will bend while lifting, potential for serious injury.

Proper harnesses have the lifting point at the back, between the shoulders.

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B******S ...... side tether is commonly chosen when working aloft on ships etc for safety harness .... for the very reason I gave. The fall or drop is short and yes it hurts - but the fall etc is not long enough to generate the momentum to seriously injure.

You are liable to some injury by side - yes - but FAR LESS than the potential back breaking front attachment you see many mistakenly use.

If you go back and read my post fully - you will see clearly that I said least damaging was AT THE REAR ...

I was NOT talking about LIFTING HARNESSES - but was referring to safety lines / tethers. Safety line to rear means that you are unable to do anything to right or correct your situation ...

Side lift is not like a drop or serious fall and the shock when arrested ...

penberth3 said:

Wrong! With a side attachment the body will bend while lifting, potential for serious injury.

Proper harnesses have the lifting point at the back, between the shoulders.

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Correct. The MOB cannot slip out of the harness and is less prone to injury. Without leg loops there is a fair chance they will slide out of the harness if hook in the chest and reach up to help. Certainly, harnesses should have fittings in the back. Also MUCH better if you have to tow them for a few minutes while setting up, which is likely.

Not Entirely Correct. If you are lifting the MOB by yourself (couples) they can only help if they are facing the boat. Even with a winch, a smaller crewman will struggle to hoist a person up the mast in a bosuns chair. Add to that that the person has an extra 25-40 pounds of sodden gear on (it holds water). In addition, unless someone can push them away from the boat while you are cranking on the winch they will probably snag terribly in the lifelines, which they can't reach.

Not simple.

As for lowering a sail into the water in strong conditions, with the boat drifting at several knots, that sounds like a certified nightmare. You have to somehow hold the sail open while you maneuver the victim into it. I'm sure it's elegant on a calm day with many hands available. Heck, race crews struggle just to get a dropped sail back aboard.

Side points on a harness are for positioning only and either the front or back is required to remain attached. I doubt you would need to fully fall on the side to break a rib and stick it into a lung. Probably just a good running start at a non-stretch anchor point, like being thrown by a wave, would do it. Or being towed along the side of a boat. I'm not interested in being the test dummy. A side point on a waist harness is a different thing, also just for positioning, but the force is on the hips, not a rib. I've used those. OSHA made chest harness with side points illegal decades ago in the US.

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Side note. Every boat should have (IMO) a ~ 20-30' length of rope in the cockpit with a carabiner in one end. This has many contingency uses on a boat, and one of these is to quickly clip the MOB so that they remain with the boat while your prepare you lifting method.

thinwater said:

… Side note. Every boat should have (IMO) a ~ 20-30' length of rope in the cockpit with a carabiner in one end. This has many contingency uses on a boat, and one of these is to quickly clip the MOB so that they remain with the boat while your prepare you lifting method.

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The Livesaver delivers that function, except it is already folded in the lifejacket’s stoles. On deployment it floats free, with an open eye, it is ready to be scooped up with a boat hook and attached to the boat.

It’s a no brainer, doesn't need anybody to go down to the MOB.

RunAgroundHard said:

The Livesaver delivers that function, except it is already folded in the lifejacket’s stoles. On deployment it floats free, with an open eye, it is ready to be scooped up with a boat hook and attached to the boat.

It’s a no brainer, doesn't need anybody to go down to the MOB.

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Good product.

I say both. It can be handy to have an extension so that you can easily position the swimmer. And a 30-foot rope with a carabiner has other uses.

The carabiner also sounds handy if sailing with nonsailors. They might not manage a bowline in a worried hurry but they'll probably manage the carabiner. I shall definitely be adding this. thanks

justanothersailboat said:

The carabiner also sounds handy if sailing with nonsailors. They might not manage a bowline in a worried hurry but they'll probably manage the carabiner. I shall definitely be adding this. thanks

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Would you (or anyone) consider sending crew this link as well?
#112 | Safety at Sea | How to AVOID MOB Situations
To put the odds more in favour of not needing any MOB retrieval in the first place?

Or what about making some sort of infographic of top tips to staying on the boat to put up in the heads?

Even on a google search "top tips how to not fall overboard on a sailing boat" the results are mostly about MOB retrieval but there is stuff out there, anyone else actually looked?
https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips-not-fall-overboard

Forget about MOB retrieval IMHO.
Until you've done all you realistically can to prevent it in the first place...

GHA said:

Would you (or anyone) consider sending crew this link as well?
#112 | Safety at Sea | How to AVOID MOB Situations
To put the odds more in favour of not needing any MOB retrieval in the first place?

Or what about making some sort of infographic of top tips to staying on the boat to put up in the heads?

Even on a google search "top tips how to not fall overboard on a sailing boat" the results are mostly about MOB retrieval but there is stuff out there, anyone else actually looked?
https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips-not-fall-overboard

Forget about MOB retrieval IMHO.
Until you've done all you realistically can to prevent it in the first place...

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Podcast - no. Infographic in the heads - probably not to be honest. Safety brief focusing on the importance of staying aboard (and how to do that) first, the other stuff second, always.

I think the valuable stuff is better put when it's boat-specific and demonstrated ("clip on here, like this. Then hold onto that...").

justanothersailboat said:

I think the valuable stuff is better put when it's boat-specific and demonstrated ("clip on here, like this. Then hold onto that...").

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Perfect material for a printout in the heads then when everyone will see it many times each and every day..

Safety briefings go in one ear & out the other.

GHA said:

Safety briefings go in one ear & out the other.

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Depends where and how you are sailing and how clear they are about risk and outcome.

I used to run skippered charters between Shetland and Norway. A minimum distance of 170 miles between the outer islands so an overnight passage. Boat sailed on windvane steering. Short watches with one person on deck and one on call below. This was before all our nice electronic toys so the person on deck was there to keep a visual all round lookout.
Briefing included: If you fall over the side the boat will keep sailing by itself. When we find you missing we will turn back to look for you. The water is very cold. When we find you we will probably have to recover your body. The person on watch will wear their harness and use the tether (and they always did).

In nearly 50 years of yacht owning I have had two incidents with someone unintentionally in the water. Both involved falls from marina fingers. The first was me, while pulling on a mooring rope thinking I was tightening it when the other end was actually free. The second was a friend on a windy night with a swell running in to the marina. We were setting up extra lines and he stepped on to the finger which bounced him in to the water. Both times other people were around and helped lift the casualty back onto the pontoon.

Edit: I have been known to wear a lifejacket when venturing on to a marina in really bad weather.

Hello GHA, back to your specific case, I made myself a "not-MOB harness, I am usually singlehanding so no need to lift anyone out of the water, should I ever sail near someone else floating with a lifejacket and asking for help I'll try to do something
Personal take, I find the more complicated it is to wear one the least likely I'd always wear it, a thing like this (first picture taken from the net, no idea if good or bad) I would probably wear it once to take some nice photos hey-ho then it would likely be forgotten inside a locker.

The simpler I could make are from only webbing, with a soft shackle to close the two front loops and serve as attachment for the tether.


I make them to measure, no steel adjustment buckles to rub against my ribs. They are light, unobtrusive, may also be kept permanently over the garments; during those days when one is putting/taking off oilies all the time I can use two: one nearer to the body, one over the oilies. No problems in wearing or sleeping in them for days.
The attachment point is very high, slightly above the sternum bone height: I have been tossed on the boat a couple of times with a regular lifejacket harness and it almost broke my back, with this one it's a lot better.
I don't know if one could be retrieved from the water with such a harness but I do not care it's not its purpose anyway, it's a not-mob harness.
Regards, r.

justanothersailboat said:

The carabiner also sounds handy if sailing with nonsailors. They might not manage a bowline in a worried hurry but they'll probably manage the carabiner. I shall definitely be adding this. thanks

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Actually, the purpose of the carbiner is to reach down and clip the victim or have them clip themselves. I don't think any of us wants to be tying a knot in those situations. Also, you might clip the harness and then disconnect the tether, so that you can easily move the MOB to a better recovery location.

Roberto said:

... it's not its purpose anyway, it's a not-mob harness.
Regards, r.

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I have a similar one. I added fleece; more comfortable in the summer here. I also used 2-inch webbing for the chest belt-only for better impact distribution. Yes, it rides high, like it should (PFD harnesses are way too low for proper harness function). No metal until the tether is added.

Something I will actually wear. Actually, one of the main functions is fishing. I'll be out on the tramps, working on trolling rigging with both hands or hauling in a big fish, not paying attention to the waves. Anything where I don't have a spare hand and my attention is elsewhere.

Roberto said:

The simpler I could make are from only webbing, with a soft shackle to close the two front loops and serve as attachment for the tether.
View attachment 175798

I make them to measure, no steel adjustment buckles to rub against my ribs. They are light, unobtrusive, may also be kept permanently over the garments; during those days when one is putting/taking off oilies all the time I can use two: one nearer to the body, one over the oilies. No problems in wearing or sleeping in them for days.
The attachment point is very high, slightly above the stern bone height: I have been tossed on the boat a couple of times with a regular lifejacket harness and it almost broke my back, with this one it's a lot better.
I don't know if one could be retrieved from the water with such a harness but I do not care it's not its purpose anyway, it's a not-mob harness.
Regards, r.

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I've used this for years solo, grillion is great, very much instinctive to always take up the slack without thinking about it. Sometimes gets worn day & night for days on end. Great at the mast, lean back with both hands free. Really should get into the habit of wearing it much more often even when it's calm. Marseilles soap is a new favourite thing & keeps the webbing supple & smells nice too. Caribiners must be heading to 20 years onboard, little wash & dab of oil keeps them easy to use. Handholds on deck I know in my sleep though rarely go past the mast in any kind of weather. Remember not leaving the cockpit for 5 days straight on one passage, ah the trades..

Though interesting thread, bottom line I reckon is we just don't know what works best, just no bags of data to go on & our brains love to make up stories about how in control & clever we are rather than face up to the concept of being quite wrong

Though pretty certain staying onboard is one thing we should be practicing & thinking about constantly, little & often, much, much, much, more than any of us do!

Refueler said:

B******S ...... side tether is commonly chosen when working aloft on ships etc for safety harness .... for the very reason I gave. The fall or drop is short and yes it hurts - but the fall etc is not long enough to generate the momentum to seriously injure.

You are liable to some injury by side - yes - but FAR LESS than the potential back breaking front attachment you see many mistakenly use.

If you go back and read my post fully - you will see clearly that I said least damaging was AT THE REAR ...

I was NOT talking about LIFTING HARNESSES - but was referring to safety lines / tethers. Safety line to rear means that you are unable to do anything to right or correct your situation ...

Side lift is not like a drop or serious fall and the shock when arrested ...

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No, it's you that's talking bollocks. A fall onto a single side attachment will kill you, it is not a "commonly chosen" way of working aloft. Lifting with a single side attachment will cause serious injury.

penberth3 said:

No, it's you that's talking bollocks. A fall onto a single side attachment will kill you, it is not a "commonly chosen" way of working aloft. Lifting with a single side attachment will cause serious injury.

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YOU are inferring significant distance fall ... which I have already agreed would be injurous

Second having already recovered persons during my seagoing career - I can tell you that you are again overstating the consequences ... and ignoring the tether length.

It is preferred for lifting - the high placed rear becket on a lifejacket harness ... if there isn't one - they can be easily sewn on .. THAT is the preferred for a LIFEJACKET .... or harness designed for any lifting. We'll leave out such as Helicopter ops where person is conscious and able to close arms / secure the high point frontal style - a lift that I have had many times.

Now consider a tether or safety harness - which is what I was referring to ... that harness is to STOP you falling distance - not as some think - to just have you connected for recovery. Many harnesses I see are too long - they should be short to prevent that slip / fall developing momentum - IF too long and that momentum develops - then injury is expected. Short allows person to be stopped before that event - attached to side allows person to have at least one hand / arm to use to position oneself - but if the attachment is to the rear - you are seriously restricted in that as it turns you away ...

Years of staging work overside / accommodation fronts of ships - guys on the stages are shown to have the short harnesses to the stage / bosuns haul - and clipped to side belt ... if the person slips - the 'fall' is extremely short - and person has possibility to still grab the stage or chair to steady to be recovered.

Yes, as I mentioned earlier; on a yacht jackstay or attachment points inboard and a short tether so that any fall is checked before going over the side/lifelines.
Stay on the boat.
A long tether in the cockpit while single handed resulted in me attending a friend's funeral.