Wing keels - good or bad?

I'm on the verge of buying a small cruising yacht for the East Coast and one option is a Hunter 23 with a wing keel. The majority of Hunter boats are bilge keelers, of course, and their Round the Island wins mean I need no convincing.
However, this one is local to me, in very nice order, has a Honda engine and an A-frame for lowering / raising the mast and, for the boat's length, the internal space is immense, which the frau will approve of. Not to mention the separate lavvy.
It's the keel that puzzles me, Yes, it reduces the draft compared to a fin Sonata and I don't intend to dry out at all. (Famous last words.) Will it point higher than a bilge keeler? What's the intended benefit? Is there a problem that contributes to their rarity?

Tiger Moth said:

However, this one is local to me, in very nice order, has a Honda engine and an A-frame for lowering / raising the mast and, for the boat's length, the internal space is immense, which the frau will approve of. Not to mention the separate lavvy.

Click to expand...

If everything else is right about it, don't worry about the keel - presumably the keel works, the technical details are irrelevant.

Leaving aside the technical merits of winged keels for one moment, the winged keel was "invented for" Australia II, a 12-metre class yacht that launched in 1982 and won the 1983 America's Cup. The Hunter 23 was first sold in 1985. A brand new day sailer probably costs £50,000+ today - If you have that kind of money to spend, are you gonna buy the one with the latest cool keel that won the America's Cup, or are you gonna buy the older design of popular 23' boat from a different manufacturer?

Probably that's why winged keels are no longer popular - they fell out of fashion. Seems like there may be benefits to them when well-canvassed into wind, especially if draft is a consideration, but they increase drag and so the boat is slightly slower on other points of sail. It seems to me that the benefits are hard for the owner to measure - when you're under sail under a decent breeze, can that 0.1 or 0.2 knots here or there be attributed to the keel or to sail trim or to something else? Who cares? Probably the original owner of this Hunter bragged about its cool keel back in 1987, and claimed it was why he kept winning races (or why his racing handicap unfairly penalised him). Probably the benefits are not significant enough for most people most of the time, so they don't justify the increased manufacturing cost, and that's why they're no long used - most boats sold these days are built to a price and sold directly into charter fleets.

When buying a boat, pick one or two really important things and learn to compromise on everything else. Good engine, good condition and high WAF - those give you a very high score indeed; the shape of the keel should not be a consideration IMO.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Sorry to drift the thread so quickly.

Its not unlike roll bar anchors, everyone wanted one (despite the fact the inventor, Peter Bruce, rejected his own idea). Its taken time but what is happening now, Anchor Right used ballast, Rocna introduced the Vulcan, Mantus introduced the M2 and Rocna again, recognising that the roll bar did nothing for hold (but was a really good marketing ploy) and making the roll bar in to a roll band to make the device lower profile. This latter underlines the criticism, as being correct, that the roll bar actually detracted from hold.

The wing keel may have worked, technically, on Australia II, it may have added a psychological advantage - this latter is really irrelevant on a small leisure yacht and it might only offer a technical advantage on a large yacht. Its not used now on performance yachts of the same size, they have excessively skinny fins with large bulbs at the bottom (admittedly - some of which might have fins . The skinny fins, here, are made from BIS 80 or equivalent and machined to shape, the wing keel was cast. Large cruising yachts might now have a hollow fin, fabricated from HT steel, with a bulb at the bottom - and the hollow fin might be designed to hold fuel or water. I'm too young to know but possibly skinny fins were not possible in the late 70's early 80's as a result of the HT steel and the HT fixing bolts not being readily available.

Its not the only fad, there were tandem keels, which I think came later than the wing keel. We don't have winged keels now but we do have wings, but they are called foils

I don't knock wing keels - Australia II won and importantly broke America's strangle hold. Which must have been a major psychological disaster for the invincible, Americans and if you will excuse the word - it offered a 'lift' to the rest of the world - and see where we are now.

Jonathan

I have wondered what would happen if a wing keeled boat dried out on it's side. With the increased heel, would appear it's more likely to flood than with a standard keel.

As I understand it the winged keel on Australia 2 was a way of beating the measurement of draft by giving more draft when heeled. Of course the concept of winglets on tip of jet aircraft seems to be pretty standard now as a way of controlling off the end eddies.
So it would seem off the end eddies can be controlled by winged keel or more often now a bullet. In both cases ballast is lower with obvious advantages.
The disadvantage of winged keel on a yacht would be that if you run aground you can not heel to boat to reduce draft.(but you can't with twin keels)
The advantage is less draft but I think with a penalty of less lateral resistance area and more drag so probably worse up wind performance.
So as said winged keel seem to have gone out of favor although bullet (bulb) keels seem to be the go for performance as said.
If performance is a priority then fin keel possibly with bulb would be best but winged keel might be fine for his requirements. ol'will

Wikipedia claims that the wings have aerodynamics which pull downwards, increasing righting movement.

KompetentKrew said:

Wikipedia claims that the wings have aerodynamics which pull downwards, increasing righting movement.

Click to expand...

I've heard similar comments (and also for Bruce anchor - to allow it to self right (the deeper wing provided lift) but to me - it makes no sense for the wings to reduce lift Pulling down would surely increase wetted surface area of the hull. Now if the winged keel provided lift for the leeward side of the keel.....

I confess I've never seen a winged keel close up (nor a tandem keel)

Jonathan

I have a boat with a hoofing great 4ft wide wing keel! All the bigger Parker boats have them and they’re boats that are renowned for their sailing qualities. Yes they’re a bit unfashionable these days, but I make up for that by owning a few Apple products and wearing ball-achingly tight jeans. The increased drag that KK mentions above is definitely a thing, I reckon. Mine needs above ten knots of breeze to really get going - below that other similarly sized fin keelers will creep past me, but there’s not much in it.

Wing keels are excellent for catching creel lines.

fredrussell said:

I have a boat with a hoofing great 4ft wide wing keel! All the bigger Parker boats have them and they’re boats that are renowned for their sailing qualities. Yes they’re a bit unfashionable these days, but I make up for that by owning a few Apple products and wearing ball-achingly tight jeans. The increased drag that KK mentions above is definitely a thing, I reckon. Mine needs above ten knots of breeze to really get going - below that other similarly sized fin keelers will creep past me, but there’s not much in it.

Click to expand...

It was breezy when the Aussies won the cup, so that figures. Wing keels have quite a theoretical advantage, as long as the drag isn’t the dominant factor, ie light winds.

Join the Hunter Association, worth every penny for info and opinion.
This is extract from forum.
“Fin wing keel and outboard is the combination that I have on the Clyde. I also have 3 jibs (from blade to 135% overlap), as well as a spinnaker and scooper. The wing keel probably has less wetted surface area than the twin keels, so less drag in the light stuff. I also feel that the increased draft when heeled, reduces leeway - until you get to about 40 degrees, when she tends to slip to leeward quite a lot. Twin keels should be more stable downwind with a following sea - the wing keel with spinnaker and 4 foot waves can get quite entertaining.”

Thank you all for your thoughts and experiences, it is very helpful to me. Overall it was pretty inconclusive, so I think I might go for it. But then there's this Kerry 27 with a decent Nanni inboard for a couple of grand less... A long keeler, or the 23' Pegasus with the fin. I tell you, I'm pulling myself from pillar to post with this boat selection mullarky. You should see the speadsheet with the refurbishment and mooring fees, I even have a costs versus boat size index. It all points to "stay put" but much as I adore my White Boat I am tired of racing round and round the lovely Barton Broad. It's not as if I ever win!

View attachment 175425

fredrussell said:

I have a boat with a hoofing great 4ft wide wing keel! All the bigger Parker boats have them and they’re boats that are renowned for their sailing qualities. Yes they’re a bit unfashionable these days, but I make up for that by owning a few Apple products and wearing ball-achingly tight jeans. The increased drag that KK mentions above is definitely a thing, I reckon. Mine needs above ten knots of breeze to really get going - below that other similarly sized fin keelers will creep past me, but there’s not much in it.

Click to expand...

I have a wing keeled Hanse 301. I don’t think a wing keel is really any different from a performance point of view than the bulb keel that more or less superseded it, at least not for the cruising sailor or club racer. On the Hanse it has the advantage of reducing draft from 1.7 to 1.2 metres meaning I can get parked on the drying pontoon at Dale before fin keeled boats can and I like that.

The boat happily goes superbly upwind and will be doing 5+Kn through the water in a 10kn breeze so the keel is not limiting performance. That said the boat weighs about 3 tonnes and has a big fractional rig with laminate sails so you’d expect it to go upwind whatever the keel.

I don’t think the OP will find any practical drawbacks of buying a boat with a wing, whether there are any advantages either though I don’t know as not familiar with the Hunter boats and depends on what sort of sailing he wants to do.

NormanS said:

Wing keels are excellent for catching creel lines.

Click to expand...

I’ve only ever once run over a pot, just off Milford Haven marina entrance a few years ago, and under motor. It went straight under the bow and popped out of the port quarter not the stern. I’ve always put it down to the line being pushed away from the saildrive and prop by the wing preventing it from coming near the prop vortex.

That’s my theory but I’m not looking to test it again!

Is this a British or American Hunter? I was not aware of a wing keel option for the British Hunter Horizon 23.

ProDave said:

Is this a British or American Hunter? I was not aware of a wing keel option for the British Hunter Horizon 23.

Click to expand...

Defo an option, there’s one 4 berths along from my own. I think the boat in question is the one for sale at Shotley??

Geoff Wode said:

Defo an option, there’s one 4 berths along from my own. I think the boat in question is the one for sale at Shotley??

Click to expand...

Nope, it's at Wayford Bridge, just up the river from Barton. I'm also considering a Parker 21 but that's in Devon and I'm not convinced about lifting / swinging keels unless the mechanism is very new and without that lies great expense. I'm not looking to spend much over £5,000 and this Hunter is in very nice order. Actually, no it's not. There are cracks around the keel bolts, two of them are missing, the forward hatch leaks badly, the rig is off an insurance write-off, mice have nested in the sails and it's subject to a contested insurance claim.

Tiger Moth said:

Nope, it's at Wayford Bridge, just up the river from Barton. I'm also considering a Parker 21 but that's in Devon and I'm not convinced about lifting / swinging keels unless the mechanism is very new and without that lies great expense. I'm not looking to spend much over £5,000 and this Hunter is in very nice order. Actually, no it's not. There are cracks around the keel bolts, two of them are missing, the forward hatch leaks badly, the rig is off an insurance write-off, mice have nested in the sails and it's subject to a contested insurance claim.

Click to expand...

I would not walk away from that one, I would RUN.

T596, was called Claire, then Kingfisher..? Constructed 1996..
I pass by the entrance of the yard regularly.. will do tomorrow on the way to go Sailing...

I’ve never sailed a wing keel but one of the comments I remember from the time they were trendy was that they changed the boat’s motion a bit so that it rode the waves more like a larger boat. I can imagine that this might suit some people.