Jeanne Socrates' JSD

GHA said:

Might have to watch this one yet again.. there is one thing which does seem to crop up amongst the big boys & girls out there, a strong streak of humility & sense of being exposed to probabilities where there are no black & white answers. Unlike forums... Even in Moitessier Randall says

Then 27:30 for JSD chat

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Hello GHA,

I have watched the one you suggested and looked into the blog. I will still be doing so for some time to come since the informations are manyfold and not always spelled out like: what to do when soandso happens.
The absolute beauty of such textpieces or oral records is, that every now and then one finds something that seems to be the missing little stone in in one's own mosaic, or as in cases like high lattitude sailing an entirely new whole mosaic.

Thanks once more for the lead and - if I may say so - keep them coming if you find any more.

Cheers, G.

zoidberg said:

It does happen. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention....

You might start with this: Fastnet Race Inquiry

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That's it? So everyone sailing round the UK should have JSD's because of one particular offshore yacht race 45 years ago?
When weather forecasting was pretty useless compared to today, 19 of 24 abandoned boats were still floating the next day & race rules were changed so they didn't result in unstable boats?

That's your evidence?

Perhaps you should pay a little more attention to the real world..

zoidberg said:

This is one of those subjects where one's initial assumptions play a considerable part, as does vulnerability to 'confirmation bias'. There are those who say 'I can see a problem with that'.... and those who say 'Let's see if I can find a solution to that problem....' Guys like aero-engineer Don Jordan, f'r instance.

The problem he saw was the carnage of the '79 Fastnet disaster - which happened in the Celtic Sea between Lands End and the Irish coast - not the Southern Ocean.
Boats being rolled by jumbled breaking seas when they became beam-on to those seas.....

He developed a hypothesis, and had it tested by the US Coastguard. It worked. He didn't have an R&D budget, but used materials he - and other yotties - had to
hand - including heavy nylon rope. The weight and bulk of that had him suggest that the rearmost section of his long rode could be lighter rope, which of necessity involved knotting the sections together. Knots are considerably weaker than good splices, so splices were introduced.

Today, with the availability of very high-strength but light Dyneema, there's no good reason to have 'lighter-weight sections'. The whole rode can be one continuous length of Dyneema, without knots or joining splices. That's much easier to stow, and to handle. The original cones, made of ripstop nylon, frayed excessively. After several 'upgrades', today's cone material is far tougher than original. Another example of 'finding solutions' and not simply giving up when a problem is identified.

There are techniques for deploying and for recovery. Two of the most experienced in the use of JSDs are Susanne Huber-Curphey and Jeanne Socrates..... who is 81.
Jeanne S

If they can do it.....

One can consult Angus Coleman of OceanBrake, in Portland. I did. He knows all there is to know about JSDs..... and their development. OceanBrake

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Hello zoidberg,
thanks for your reply and the additional ideas.
I did look into the JSD website initially and when I read the specs for the anchor points my immediate thought was, how to handle these loads manually and single.
Skip Novaks reservations I found only much later.
This all reminded me of trying out the stormjib and the trys'l in a nice 15 to not even 20 knot wind blowing off the coast, with nearly no waves , everything went honky-dory. I am the big storm sailor, put on my little thick triangles of indestructable textile and nothing can touch me.
Then came the mentioned hanking on of the storm jib in definitely different conditions but still far from anything endangering the boat.
Big humbling experience.

Now i picture myself in seriously worse conditions ..... retrieving because I need steering again ... or whatever reasons. Those were my thoughts.

I will read up a bit more before I spend the nearly 2.000,- US$ for a suitable drogue.

There is for example the idea to retrieve the whole thing by a rope that is tied to it's tail end.... much less restistance, but might the rope wrap around the cones in a seaway and ruin the braking function?


Lots of questions and possibly one has just go out and do and see.

Thanks for your ideas, I do appreciate it all.

Cheers, G.

On the subject of the 79 Fastnet desaster I dare to add, that there were many boats in the race which were constructed around some racing rules and such they ended up with hulls, which were not as seakinkly or -worthy as more conservative designs.
I did not go into the detailed reports but seem to remember that some family crews on boats like Contessas or Sadlers, which were not in the race but also cought by the same weather system, reported "interesting" or serious conditions, but explicitly said, they never felt in danger. But they did not race....

(And: a race has the effect to make considerate men bold and ambitions can play havoc with one's considerations.
Seen that in many fields like whitewater kayaking, ski touring, motorbike club races, big game hunting, even the bit of dinghy racing on a 470 that I did when I was still young and crispy.)

I remain glad, that I was not there and will try my best to avoid such conditions.

Cheers, G.

I recall a discussion, possibly reported on here at some stage, resulting from analysis of the first Golden Globe race.

I believe a JSD was streamed with a retrieval line made fast to the far end of the main cone line. At some stage the shape of the very large waves 'looped' the retrieval line round the cone line, and friction and increased drag resulted in the lines being pulled away from the anchorage points on board.

Zoidberg probably has the precise details in his files about JSD.

Servus, please be aware, JSDs are very complicated items, and need well thought out plans to store them safely when they are not in use; they need well-thought plans to deploy and adjust them without snagging; they need well-thought out plans and a LOT of power to retrieve when the wind goes down, and stowing the darn' things carefully away so that they are ready in perfect RTU mode for tomorrow's gale is a fatiguing task.

I guess JSDs are more a job for young, fit person. Personally I think Chay Blyth and some of the other earlier RTW guys had it right: bend on a inch diameter nylon warp, and pay it out steadily in a big U shape for a number of 100 metres from main winches, and keep adjusting it so no part experiences hardening by repeated compression, or friction. I know someone who often quotes Colin Chapman and the KISS and "add lightness" principle in favour of keeping boat systems uncomplicated. That principle seems to be one which should be applied to running before big waves.

sarabande said:

I guess JSDs are more a job for young, fit person.

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Jeanne Socrates was 77 during her last stint in the southern ocean deploying a JSD many times.
Roger Taylor on Ming Ming ain't no spring chicken.

servus said:

Hello zoidberg, thanks for your reply and the additional ideas.
I did look into the JSD website initially and when I read the specs for the anchor points my immediate thought was, how to handle these loads manually and single....
.....Now i picture myself in seriously worse conditions ..... retrieving because I need steering again ... or whatever reasons.

I will read up a bit more before I spend the nearly 2.000,- US$ for a suitable drogue. Lots of questions and possibly one has just go out and do and see.

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IMHO you're going about this the right way.... Asking questions, researching answers, 'diving down the rabbit holes'. There are no absolute right answers - just opinions based on experience. I've made a life-long practice of seeking to learn hard lessons from others' hard-won experience. The interview with Randall Reeves is 'gold' in that he offers NO absolutes, but his own judgements for others to assess against their own perception of needs. I think you'll find that other deeply-experienced types ( some mentioned above ) are also happy to give 'pointers' but not 'instructions'. R-R points to several sources he values, including the original version of 'Heavy Weather Sailing', and that there the author is deliberately raising questions for the reader to contemplate.

I've been down all the 'rabbit holes', have listened attentively to many, and have made decisions for ME. I also ignore the moronic aggression sometimes posted on here when someone or other chooses to hold a different opinion.

For example, my choice of all-Dyneema rode was quite easy. I bought a 100m x 10mm coil, which means the rode is rated at more than twice my boat's laden weight. 8mm would suffice, but 10mm is rather easier on the hands IMO. I'd intended to make the whole JSD myself but, after cutting all the 100 ripstop nylon patches and webbing strips, I decided the task of sewing them all up was huge - and unfair on my wife's fingers and sewing machine - so I purchased the reinforced cones I needed from Angus Coleman at OceanBrake, actually visiting his place and learning a whole lot of valuable stuff from chatting to him....

I fitted all the cones myself - tedious, but eventually satisfying - and did all the splices 'per the book'. Having worked with every inch of the thing, I'm content that I have a strong JSD. What's more, it cost me half what a simple but expensive purchase would.

Your boat is larger and heavier than mine. Your needs are different. And, if I recall correctly, your hull is metal. Like some others, you should have no difficulty having adequate 'chainplates' welded on, but if you choose to use bolts, give thought to the 'bolt pattern'. My researches indicate that a 'straight line' of several bolts is not necessarily optimum. This is even more of an issue where a line of bolts is fastened through grp. There seems to be little published research or 'finite element analysis' on the stress patterns in such a useage and so what may look 'OK' may well not be - according to a couple of structural engineers via Sailing Anarchy.

It is more widely accepted that knots reduce the Break Load of ropes. In Dyneema, considerably so. This diagram from Marlow Ropes gives food for thought...



The simple Cowhitch is often used to attach components of a JSD together. It's rarely mentioned just by how much a Cowhitch reduces a rode's Min Break Load.....
And I also use tubular antichafe protection wherever Dyneema could rub on metal.

Here are another couple of photos of parts of my setup, as more food for thought.






Oh, and BTW, I do have a solution to the problem of hauling in slippery Dyneema bridle-arms and leader section, which I believe will work for me, but I'll save that for another day when I have some pics handy.

@ zoidberg

This is a very substantial answer, thank you.
And you touch on many subjects.

I found that in all parts of life one learns the best lessons by experience; the cheapest are by other people's experiences.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages and that is exactly where personal taste and likings come into the equation.
I dare say, that I am not too bad with ropework and all sorts of knots hitches and whatyoucallthem. A couple of years ago I changed nearly all running rigging on my boat, bought the raw material an did the splicing etc myself. It turned out to be a steep learning curve and left me with the impression, that sometimes the professionals ask their fees for a good reason. I did everything and I did it well. But it took me time that I would not like to enter into the cost calculation.

I produced a bag full of soft shackles made of dyneema. A wonderful material for some purposes. On the soft shackles the slipperyness is an advantage. for many other purposes I simply decided that I do not like the material. Nightmare content: prusiking up a dyneema standing rope... Horses for courses.... I am curious of your retrieval method of this slippery eel.

I like to read and converse about other people's experiences and I always find something interesting, surprising, entirely new or even phantasticly simple and practical. Here I will not really be able yet to give back a substantial feedback of my own experiences apart from the one, that simple is nearly always best.

You are absolutely right about the deeply experienced guys who give only indications but nearly never absolute solutions. This is for me a way to disdinguish those who have seen it, done it, know it and still realize that next time might be different. the more one knows the more you realize that you know , well, little...

I will keep on researching and am grateful for all suggestions,

Thanks again, G